^ I think your missing the point. Either that or you didn't read the entire post the whole way through.
The point im trying to make is that fact that, SFGAm is constantly at capacity in the dry park, and if the water park has a busy day which is usually the case, the dry park is in for big trouble after HH closes.
I am not pushing for anything to be added personally, I have gone on record saying that SFGAm is perfect ride wise at present, but the fact remains that there are serious capacity issues at the present time that need to be addressed.
And you dont need to tell me that SFGAm is in the #3 market in the U.S. im very much aware of that.
^ mabye six flags need to have a seperate admission to hurricane harbor and the main park that way when the water park closes SWT won't be extremly over crowded.
Too give you an idea about the enormous costs of parking structures, consider the Museum of Science and Industry considered adding one in 2000 when they revamped and remodeled the museum, but that plan was abandoned in favor of underground parking. The estimates for a parking structure that was considered was in the neighborhood of 75 to 100 million dollars.
I worked on a construction job on a hospital in milwaukee a few years back. I could have sworn that the 500-600 car structure was somewhere in the 10-12 million range. So it depends on how big you need to go.
Galvan316 wrote:^ I think your missing the point. Either that or you didn't read the entire post the whole way through.
The point im trying to make is that fact that, SFGAm is constantly at capacity in the dry park, and if the water park has a busy day which is usually the case, the dry park is in for big trouble after HH closes.
I am not pushing for anything to be added personally, I have gone on record saying that SFGAm is perfect ride wise at present, but the fact remains that there are serious capacity issues at the present time that need to be addressed.
And you dont need to tell me that SFGAm is in the #3 market in the U.S. im very much aware of that.
The park is making tons of money with lines as they are now. People who choose not to wait, buy a flash pass (which is more money) or go another day(which helps on quiet days.) Outside of moving to a Fast Pass style system that WDW/DL uses nothing will fix it in the dry park. Throwing in thrill rides or coasters will not fix the issue and basically moves the chain back to where they were a few years ago. Throwing in expensive rides to fix problems with operations.
Now the water park is a different story as it needs more rides.
Im going to disagree with the fact the Water park needs more attractions. Especially given the fact that the park has already admitted that the park both dry and water are "heavy" on water rides.
I understand fully Six Flags financial state as well, probably more then most of the people who've been screaming for the addition of a new coaster, BUT I see no issue with stating that the park is close to or at capacity right now, and that adding another "people eater" coaster might be something that the park should seriously consider.
Either that or, make SFHH a separate gate admission, which will help the dry park as well. Look, I like the fact that SFGAm has a huge waterpark adjacent to the dry park, that is awesome, but the only reason why I visit SFGAm is for the dry park. I am not a water park fan really, and I think that it was really dumb of Six Flags to fail to add the Entertainment Villa across the tollway from the park.
With that said, Even If the park goes unchanged for the next 10 years, Im still going to really enjoy the park and not be like some people here who have said... well im taking the year off because its not thrilling or they havent added anything blah blah.
Galvan this is simply brilliant work on your part. I'm a bit surprised by this, because you have repeatedly said we don't need one. A lot of the reasons I have been clamoring for a new coaster is that I feel like 6 Flags always does things half arsed. We really haven't gotten a cutting edge high tech thrill since Batman. Viper was a nice solid family addition, but with it's lift hill motor problems, rarely runs to it's potential. Raging Bull could have been built better, a bit higher and faster. But the current experience has to be compromised with the trims and no single rider line. Superman is really the biggest waste of potential. 6Flags took a huge gamble that the never done before pretzel loop would be successful. What if it had been too intense, like the heartline roll on Maverick, and had to be removed? Then we would have been left with a ride we would just fly around in. GrAm also errored in where it's original placement was going to be, and this is not understanding what your customers want. That was the best plot of land in the park to work with, and could have been better utilized. There should have absolutely been several more inversions and more length put in this space. The thing that disgusts me most with this ride, is that GrAm had to be cheap and not put in the duel loading stations that both Air and the SUF in Atlanta had before it. I've seen Tatsu operate with both 1 and 2 stations open and the difference is huge. We have twice the market population area of Atlanta and there's no excuse for the single station, other than cost. The other thing that disgusts me when I'm standing in line watching train after train go by, is the 6-7 empty seats, sometimes whole empty rows, on every train. But GrAm is too cheap to put in a single rider line, because it would take 1 more person to staff it. Then there's also the operational flaws with checking restraints that many have mentioned. Same thing with Ragin Cajun. They usually don't have all the cars on the track that could be on it. The single rider line should have opened with the ride, not years later. And the Dark Knight doesn't even have one. The last 2 coaster installions have been peewees that can't move people and at other parks people are more likely to ride the newer rides more. Both of these coasters could have been different rides that attracted a wider audience and had better capacity. And GrAm won't run what they do have to their maximum capacity because it would cost extra. So, no I don't think that capacity problems would be an issue today if steps had been taken along the way to do something about it. Today the best thing to do would be getting rid of Iron Wolf. Tearing this POS out and putting in a new coaster there would certainly help with balancing crowds better and moving lines. If it is done correctly. That is really what I see benefitting most without the rest of the crowd control opportunities that were passed up over the years.
Last edited by BLADE on August 19th, 2010, 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I still say if you want to heighten capacity and help with the crowds, you should even out the park. SFGam is pretty top heavy, but it is also pretty well balanced. The only problem is that in my opinion, don't kill me, they need a large draw in the back of the park, well two. I think that they could easily fit a El Toro coaster (nice out and back woodie similar to American Eagle but with a twister section) behind American Eagle and have it wrap around the helix, or they could put another true hyper out and back coaster there, not a twister like Raging Bull. That way you would have something pulling guests to the back of the park so they don't all just rush to S:UF. Then you could put a really good flat in the general area of Iron wolf. I mean like put a really good, interesting flat like a Huss Jump or a Sky swing something new back there. That way now the burden on Raging Bull and S:UF would be lessened and you would have a more evenly distributed crowd in park. Also a new, stunning ride would make a jump in attendance and would help keep attendance up for hopefully many years, that would be something I would be fine with waiting a couple years for. (Just wondering, Galvan do you have the attendance jump when Raging Bull was put in and before that?)
Last edited by deja blues on August 19th, 2010, 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Park staff later claimed that they were offered a hundred bucks a pop to try to the slide, but refused after seeing that test dummies often emerged on the other end dismembered. The looping slide was actually closed down for most of the park’s life due to these injury concerns."
Galvan316 wrote:Either that or, make SFHH a separate gate admission, which will help the dry park as well. Look, I like the fact that SFGAm has a huge waterpark adjacent to the dry park, that is awesome, but the only reason why I visit SFGAm is for the dry park. I am not a water park fan really, and I think that it was really dumb of Six Flags to fail to add the Entertainment Villa across the tollway from the park.
I agree 100% they should make HH an upcharge park. That alone with help with some lines.
With that said, Even If the park goes unchanged for the next 10 years, Im still going to really enjoy the park and not be like some people here who have said... well im taking the year off because its not thrilling or they havent added anything blah blah.
I think everyone will agree that if B&M track showed up in the parking lot tomorrow no one would get upset. The problem with a lot of people clamoring for a new coaster is they used ridiculous arguments to explain why the park needed a new coaster.
Hopefully, with this post those comments are dead and buried forever.
It is my belief that adding a new coaster is beneficial for the park, and NOT for us enthusiasts. Like RCT2wizard said above, there was a time not too long ago where the dry park was for lack of a better term empty as the water park was taking in most of the crowds.
Im not saying I want to see the park go back to those days, (all though it would be fine by me ) But what I am saying is just like what was said at the hearing for Chang.... Great America needs to evolve and anything that will help the park in a significant way ( I.E. New major coaster, flats, dark ride, Ferris Wheel) is something that needs to be looked at seriously.
Deja Blue: I doubt very much, and this is just my opinion here, and I have shared this with other people before, that SFGAm would get a 4th wooden coaster, much less put it next to an existing one. Believe me, If tomorrow we woke up and your scenario came true, I dont think anyone would mind at all
I will look around and see what I can find about the 1998 and 1999 seasons, Thats going to be very difficult id imagine, but ill see what I can do.
I believe state zoning regulations have changed since Eagle was put up, moving from 100' from homes to 300.' So I don't think anything could be built outside of Eagle. Anybody know for sure?
Does SFGAm need another major roller coaster should be followed up with the question:
Can they handle another major roller coaster?
I'm not talking in terms of space....I'm talking in terms of care and maintenance. It just seems that they push the wire every year on getting things done and ready. When you consider all that has to be done during the off-season, it's a LOT of work (which is one of the reasons why they will never do an early April opening again....that and the weather). Still, there always seem to be the proverbial trip report(s) around here at the start of the season about rides not being ready to go or 1-train operation for the first 2 weekends or come what may. To me, it's not a big deal as you aren't drawing in the same kind of crowd as say FF, but it still makes you wonder, "how much is too much?"
I guess the typical "mindset" is that if you're going to be officially opening your business, you have to have the "back-up" product/inventory ready to go in case it is warranted....but this hasn't been the case the last few seasons and it makes you wonder....could they potentially add another huge attraction to their rehab list and pull off the required work? Do you hire more people to do the necessary job with the state of the economy how it is? There are tons of potential factors to consider in this case.
My answer would most likely be....yes, with caution. I'm sure SFMM thought the exact same thing throughout the 90's until reality caught up with them. I'm sure this reality will catch up to CP at some point too (It's getting pretty close in my opinion)
I think that a lot of the issues of rides opening the season with one train ops or reduced train ops was a result of the construction of Little Dipper.
I know specifically thats the reason Eagle Red's train was delayed so long.
Thank you very much Galvan. I think as long as it was in a separate category from American eagle and Viper in terms of layout (meaning no dueling, solely out and back, and now Cyclone Twister), but mostly in terms of thrills, then they wouldn't have to much competition. Just like El Toro and Colossus, they are both wooden but they serve separate purposes. I think that a new ride would automatically lean towards steel anyway. It would really stink if the heigh restrictions prevented all that space from being used because it is a fairly good chunk of land. As for UWW-10, I think as long as Six Flags is cautious about what they add then it won't be as big of a deal for maintenance (I would love a Maverick, Millenium Force, Kingda Ka but although attendance would hopefully skyrocket it wouldn't be worth it). But you are right that at some point profit can diminish even though attendance increases, which is why you have GAdv being the most attended but lower profit because of running costs. However, I think in this case employing more people for maintenance and running would be a good thing and hopefully that spike in attendance would balance out the running costs. Back to Six Flags being cautious what I mean is that they shouldn't try to pull a Cedar Fair and build something new and with risk. The economy and six flags position right now just point towards the fact that they should use B&M no matter what, intamin/intaride may build a better coaster but Six Flags isn't in a position to take a risk. A B&M capacity machine would work so much better because first there is something more attractive about B&M then the other companies, and their capacity and reliability are unequaled. Therefore, if they played it safe it should work out for the better.
"Park staff later claimed that they were offered a hundred bucks a pop to try to the slide, but refused after seeing that test dummies often emerged on the other end dismembered. The looping slide was actually closed down for most of the park’s life due to these injury concerns."
deja blues wrote: - El Toro 2006 $12,000,000 SFGadv: Purchased by Burke. Contract already signed. Shapiro couldnt back out. - Kingda Ka 2005 $25,000,000 SFGavd : Shapiro didnt take over until 2006 season. - Terminator Salvation: the Ride 2009 $10,000,000 SFMM : I have heard it's a nice addition and not to expensive. - Tatsu 2006 $21,000,000 SFMM : See Tatsu, same deal. - X2 Renovation 2008 $10,000,000 SFMM: Most of that cost was the new trains which the ride needed. Have you seen how massive they are? - Pandemonium 2005 $---------- SFNE: Under Burke. - Tony Hawk's Big Spin 2008 $6,500,000 SFOT :Great spinning coaster that didnt cost much. - Goliath 2006 $20,000,000 SFOT: I think you meant SFOG, but the same applies here as El Toro and Tatsu. - Goliath 2008 $6,500,000 SFFT: Relocated. - Tony Hawk's Big Spin 2007 $6,500,000 SFFT: See other Tony Hawks. - Goliath 2006 $18,000,000 La Ronde: Burke coaster. See Tatsu and El Toro. - Ednör - L'Attaque 2010 $-------- La Ronde: Relocated. - Tony Hawk's Big Spin 2007 $6,500,000 SFSL: See other Tony Hawks. - Evel Knievel 2008 $7,000,000 SFSL: See Terminator - Tony Hawk's Big Spin 2008 $6,500,000 SFDK: See other Tony Hawks.
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I finally retired the Sarah Palin signature because she is now 100% irrelevant.
I thank you all for the idea, but that is absolutely something that I am not going to do.
Doing that in my opinion would make me seem like a whiny coaster enthusi-ass.
My mission of this thread was to A. Break the ridiculous reasons that people give for why we need a new coaster. B. Give people an objective look at things from really what could be called a "non-enthusiast" perspective, by that I mean to say that anyone who visits the park knows that it gets insanely busy, and recently its been more and more the case. C. And this is most important I think, I reminds people of how lucky we are to have Six Flags Great America as our home park.
It would have been nice to come home to a new coaster since I no longer live in Illinois and won't be able to visit the park as much as I used to, but oh well we'll see what we get next year.
rct2wizard360 wrote:Now for the few Great Adventure fanboys that walk on over here from time to time... You have received the worlds tallest and at one point, fastest roller coaster on the face of the planet. You then received El Toro, which is one of the best wooden coasters on the planet. You also have an extremely solid line up of coasters much like we do, but with those two gems on top of it. Those two gems of yours totally spread people out amongst the park. Now now now, don't bother telling me how close Kingda Ka and El Toro are to each other. But the point is, you get a huge portion of the guests going straight to either of those rides in the morning. Leaving much of the park calm for the beginning of the day. Once people hit Ka and El Toro, they spread in all different directions. Now add on top of that the fact that you completely refurbished an already popular roller coaster in your park, added The Dark Knight, and you are now getting Chang. Great Adventure has people all over the park with all these appealing attractions to guests that are going to take them all over the park all day. Most will surge to the newer ones, but that will keep the lines of the others at ease. That is exactly what our park needs right now. Just ONE more capacity machine to eat up guests.
Ok, I've tried to be nice on this site and now you guys bash us?
Lets get some facts straight: -Gadv does have some marquee attractions(Nitro, Toro, Ka), but not enough to sustain guests. The park was PACKED on a weekday where the log flume had a 2 hr. wait at 9:00 pm(wtf?) Chang can only help us with Capacity. If anything our park needs the capacity machine. -Guests spread out? Have you seen Movietown and LakeFront at our park compared to Plaza De Carnival, Golden Kingdom and even Fronteir Adventures? The left side of the park is SO strong ride wise that the #3 ranked steel coaster on the planet and an intense invert's section of the park is mostly a ghost town. -Popular coaster? Since when was Medusa popular? It was SO unpopular that the park decided not to open it in the morning. People thought it would leave before Scream machine did! Thats actually how unpopular it was. Then Bizarro became #1...
Please stop bashing us, I'm tired of coming on these boards to defend myself, my friends, and my home park.