SFGAm buys Little Dipper from Kiddieland

[tp41190]

Will Six Flags keep the manual control on the ride? Or will all that be modified?

[BP317]

/\ I would assume it will be ran by a PLC as all the other rides in the park are.

[Jcoaster95]

Also, during October, they were starting some pretty extensive rehab work on Whizzer's station and queue building.

Thank God. I do not want to see the Whizzer go.

[BP317]

They did major mechanical and program work on DejaVu in the spring of 2007, didnt stop it from being removed.
(Whizzer's not going anywhere, just pointing things out )

[sfgam1]

Do you think that they are going to use that hand lever brake or change it to electrical?

[BrianPlencner]

Personally, from a historic standpoint, I would love to see the operation, and running of the coaster be exactly as it was at Kiddieland: manual operated skid brakes using the wooden handle, little block of wood used to open the lapbars, etc. Its those things that made the Little Dipper much more then just your "standard" kiddie coaster.

From an ACE perspective, Little Dipper is a coaster that is considered an "ACE Coaster Classic". The short definition is below (taken from http://www.aceonline.org/CoasterAwards/?type=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

An ACE Coaster Classic is about a traditional experience. One that has been shared by generations of thrill seekers since the golden age of the 1920s when the wild, uninhibited, free wheeling thrills of the wooden coaster established it as the premier thrill ride and an icon of popular culture. The concept of ACE Coaster Classics was developed during a period when changes in the design, equipping, and operation of wood coasters threatened to erase these time-honored experiences and rituals. ACE awards ACE Coaster Classic status to coasters that still adhere to these principles that allow riders to safely experience the thrill of the classic wooden roller coaster ride.

Depending on the modifications made to the coaster once it is at Great America, ACE may revoke its "Coaster Classic" status, as the coaster must meet and adhere to a set of specific criteria (for that list, you can click on the same page I reference above).


This is another reason why I hope that the park makes as little modifications as possible to ride. Sure, I know they will have to replace things that Mike P has already mentioned (New track, new cogs, etc). But, I really do hope that they keep the operational side of things as they are.

--Brian

[tp41190]

But will Six Flags allow there staff to manual control a coaster...mainly as a insurance problem? After seeing how dumb and careless some of the operators are at the park I could see a lot of problems happening (nothing serious though).

[sfgam1]

How many trains does this coaster have?

[sfgamfan717]

^only 1

[CoastsToCoasters]

Can no one see the big plan here? This is what will happen in the next two years:

1. Little Dipper will open in a kiddie area in 2010
2. Glow in the Dark will open in 2010
3. Mid to late 2010 the Wizzer will close to make room for Chang floorless
4. Chang will open with a new name and theme in 2011
5. SSA buliding will be utilized in 2011/2012 for new 5D show

The Wizzer is past its time and parts are a big factor here. There is more than one Reason The Little Dipper was bought this week. This gives managment ammo to fight in a "There is no coasters for my kids to ride fight". Call me crazy but this is how it will pan out.

Im sorry you are? and What?! DejaVu2001 is someone you should listen to. He/she knows what theyre sayin.

To make such assumptions is settin you up to be picked at.

Its also funny that if indeed your SSA assumption is true(seeing there is that new deal with the 5D company), I dont see why it would have been erased off the 2009 map...?

[FParker185]

as far as this 5D thing is concerned, it fits the description of something I heard about a few months ago. If it's one and the same, and we get it, it's not going in SSA. Supposedly some upcharge thing is/was going in or around the Games Gallery in County Fair. All I ever heard was it is supposed to be some type of new game-like or simulator thing that would be an upcharge.

Also most companies don't buy stuff at IAAPA (it's actually against the rules to do so), most of the time when you hear about a purchase at IAAPA, it's something that's been in the works and they just sign the official paperwork.

[RagingBullFan]

But will Six Flags allow there staff to manual control a coaster...mainly as a insurance problem? After seeing how dumb and careless some of the operators are at the park I could see a lot of problems happening (nothing serious though).

The ride likely will be modified with a PLC and automatic control not only because of insurance, but because of the ride operators.

A ride that is manually controlled would be considered by OSHA as operating a piece of "Hazardous Machinery" which would require you to be a 18 year old to operate it.

[FParker185]

yeah, I'm guessing they will remove the levers and put in pneumatic cylinders to operate the brakes under the station. They basically have to leave the skid brakes in place due to the curved station. I don't know if they will go as far as putting in a PLC though. Possibly some super simple relay logic if anything. Unless they put in queue's for specific rows really the train can stop anywhere in the station and be fine. Basically just have a proxy about 15 feet before the end of the skids and when the train passes said sensor it can apply the brakes. If they go and put in a PLC system it will cost more for that than it cost to buy the ride in the first place. Even no system at all would work, have a button in a simple control panel that deactivates the brakes and it's good to go, button pressed, brakes off, let go and brakes raise up. Seeing as the ride is capable of only running one train, it wouldn't be a disaster if they occasionally loose the train to go for a second circuit. Seen that a bunch of times on other coasters with a similar system. No one would ever be in danger.

[Paradise]

yeah, I'm guessing they will remove the levers and put in pneumatic cylinders to operate the brakes under the station. They basically have to leave the skid brakes in place due to the curved station. I don't know if they will go as far as putting in a PLC though. Possibly some super simple relay logic if anything. Unless they put in queue's for specific rows really the train can stop anywhere in the station and be fine. Basically just have a proxy about 15 feet before the end of the skids and when the train passes said sensor it can apply the brakes. If they go and put in a PLC system it will cost more for that than it cost to buy the ride in the first place. Even no system at all would work, have a button in a simple control panel that deactivates the brakes and it's good to go, button pressed, brakes off, let go and brakes raise up. Seeing as the ride is capable of only running one train, it wouldn't be a disaster if they occasionally loose the train to go for a second circuit. Seen that a bunch of times on other coasters with a similar system. No one would ever be in danger.

How do you know so much about the workings of a coaster my friend?

[RagingBullFan]

As simple as it would be to use a relay system, I don't believe they would be allowed to use it. Current OSHA standards would at the very least require quite a few safety relays to be used, and having to use those would quickly equal the price of a MicroLogix, which is what I'd expect them to use. They could even use an AB Pico controller as that is what is used on rides such as Boucin' With Wags, Dorothy's Rosy Teacups, etc.

OSHA at my work is requiring me to modify any equipment I am upgrading that currently runs on a relays system, to a simple PLC control. It is more expensive, and realistically a small order of magnitude safer.

I would expect them to do the prox setup you mentioned, perhaps using 2 prox's to determine the train's speed prior to the brake run. In the station would be a prox for park position, as well as air gate control.

[BrianPlencner]

While I agree 100% with what RagingBullFan and FParker185 have said, my question to those comments is how come OSHA has not been able to change the operation of the ride up to this point? Don't get me wrong...I'm all for companies (no matter who they are) for following rules and regulations to keep the employee's who work there safe. If they have gone after kiddieland in the past to get things changed, I am unaware of it.

I'm just trying to figure out that, if Little Dipper could run like it has at Kiddieland since 1950, why it could not continue to run in the same manner at Great America? Kiddieland was able to train its employee's to run the ride the way it was designed, why could Great America not do the same?

Here's an example to help try to explain what I'm talking about. Lets say a company has a forklift. In order to operate it (now..I don't know if this is the real requirements, but for sake of my example, lets pretend that they are), you have to be 18 years old, have 100 hours of class time, and pass a written test. The company that currently owns it meets all the requirements above, and has 4 people working for them that can operate the forklift. However, things are not good for this company so they go out of business. A company down the street, who is in the same business, buys the forklift. However, outside of the management team, no one who works there is over the age of 16. What does the 2nd company do? Well, I would think they would hire more employee's that would be old enough to operate the forklift. Once hired, the company would need to spend more money to properly train these employee's so they could perform their job function (operate forklift) in a safe manner.

If the 2nd company is not able to hire more workers (due to cost), or they just don't want to put forth the effort to do so, or whatever the reason may be, then maybe the purchase of the forklift was not the best idea.

This goes back to my question at the start of my post: If Kiddieland was able to educate and train its employee's (or find a person old enough to run the ride, if that is a requirement), then why do you think Great America would not be able to do the same? To me, its a part of doing business. You hire and train the right people for the job function that your business performs.

--Brian

[RagingBullFan]

Brian,

I understand where you are coming from, it should be a part of the business to hire/train the right people. But at SFGAm as much as they try for that it hardly happens. They need to be able to have 16/17 year olds operate the ride for staffing reasons. When I was there, especially during the early/late months people would be moved to a completely different side of the park daily. They need the upgraded controls to be flexible with staffing.

As to the OSHA standpoint, the law is basically like this :

If the current control system is considered non-compliant by Today's standards that is OK. This is the grandfather clause, basically as long as no major modifications are made to the ride that is considered OK. But for the Little Dipper, since it has to be moved, that constitutes a major modification, and thus the current OSHA rules would be enforced. I don't think the current manual skid brakes would meet OSHA standards, but they might, I could be wrong. I am sure that things like Lift E-stop etc, will have to be added.

[Jcoaster95]

^If that were true, then why does meteor still use the manual control system?

http://www.rcdb.com/2570.htm?p=20082

I've never been to Little America, so they might have changed it after this picture was taken, but not likely.

[BP317]

Wisconsin is a lot more leinent than Illinois in laws regarding amusement rides [see no fences around the rides at Mt Olympus]. Even if the state did allow it I dont think SF corp would, the only manually operated ride i've ever seen at a Six Flags park is the Brain Teaser at Darien Lake and that isn't a Six Flags park anymore, and considering all the modifications they made to Ragin' Cajun in order to make it "safer" it would surprise me if modifications weren't made to Dipper.

[Chitown]

Even if they don't use the manual levers for braking, I hope they still put the levers in just for that nostalgic look.

[FParker185]

I've seen that. I think Geauga's Big Dipper left it's control levers in place basically for looks.

As as for how I know so much about coaster inner working, it's just a part of the hobby for me, I've always been extremely mechanically inclined and all things mechanical interest me to no end, so I just absorb everything I come across. Just by looking at something, I can usually pretty quickly figure out and visualize how it works.

[Absimilliard]

First, I want to apologise about my english, as french is my first language.

I'm late to this, but I got to say: Great job to SFGAm! I never would have through such a large company would allow an individual park to take the decision to buy such a ride.

[tp41190]

First, I want to apologise about my english, as french is my first language.

I'm late to this, but I got to say: Great job to SFGAm! I never would have through such a large company would allow an individual park to take the decision to buy such a ride.

You English is better then 75% of the other members on this site.

[SFaddiction84]

When did we determine that CHANG would replace Iron Wolf? That would be a bad move! I still think and i am sure other do, that Chang's trains will go on Iron Wolf to smooth it out and Chang will go Sit Down or Sit Down/Floorless, They should keep both! The 5D theater idea, has that been announced for our park?

[david]

^ nope. the 5d attraction hasnt been confirmed for our park. but that could be our gift.