SFGAM_Hog wrote:I don't know if this is totally confirmed but Great Adventure's superloop is being moved and getting shipped over to La Ronde XD I think that's crazy.
It makes sense. La Ronde is a park they don't really want to invest in for good reasons. SF gets to give LR something, the SF montra while getting rid of aride at GAdv that has poor ridership.
mugnezz wrote:I do not think so, la ronde make a lot more visitors and money than many six-flags parks. simply (and stupidly) six flags do not want to invest.
NOT TRUE! It has some of the lowest attendance in the chain and the lowest prices, not a formula for making "more money than many SF parks." LaRonde gets the little it gets for a reason. There last coaster was 2019, Vekoma SLC 689m, cost 10M
LaRonde's attendance is about 1.25M, that's literally only ahead of Escape and about the same of the new lease operations park of Darien Lake. The park doesn't make much money b/c they have the cheapest prices in the chain. The season gold pass is $50 CAD that's $38 USD and Silver Pass for $68 that's $52 USD.
SFGAM_Hog wrote:I don't know if this is totally confirmed but Great Adventure's superloop is being moved and getting shipped over to La Ronde XD I think that's crazy.
El Diablo is a standard sized super loop. Corporates probably like... meh....send it to that S*it hole in Canada and we'll get Great Adventure an extra large super loop! El Mucho Grande Diablo! lol
New in 2020 for La Ronde, La Boucle Superbe (another super loop)! The world's first park with two Larson Loops.
They say there isn't a spot in the park where rusting metal or peeling paint is at least 15 feet away from you.
It blows my mind that SFMx & LaRondes new additions aren’t going to be new. Great adventure has been doin so well adding flats & now they’re adding one to take one away. In totally different locations. Can’t wait to see the entrance left standing with planters in front to disguise the fact there used to be a ride there.
SFGAM_Hog wrote:I don't know if this is totally confirmed but Great Adventure's superloop is being moved and getting shipped over to La Ronde XD I think that's crazy.
El Diablo is a standard sized super loop. Corporates probably like... meh....send it to that S*it hole in Canada and we'll get Great Adventure an extra large super loop! El Mucho Grande Diablo! lol
New in 2020 for La Ronde, La Boucle Superbe (another super loop)! The world's first park with two Larson Loops.
gottastrata33 wrote:It blows my mind that SFMx & LaRondes new additions aren’t going to be new. Great adventure has been doin so well adding flats & now they’re adding one to take one away. In totally different locations. Can’t wait to see the entrance left standing with planters in front to disguise the fact there used to be a ride there.
Very few SFGAdv patrons are going to be lamenting losing a super loop. Why is it surprising the 2 parks aren't getting something "new"? SF stated they are not changing their Capex, while adding the new parks. More mouths to feed and same principals on CapEx means relocations of under utilized rides to other parks will likely be the norm. It's either relocations or even more parks get cheaper rides to say they have something "new" yearly. The term "new" will mean new to that park in some cases.
Last edited by Sven18 on September 18th, 2018, 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
They'll probably start marketing VR experiences as "New attractions" for the year too! I wouldn't be surprised if they started running their hypers backwards and marketing that as their "New attraction" just like they did with Batman going backwards!
JackGlass wrote:They'll probably start marketing VR experiences as "New attractions" for the year too! I wouldn't be surprised if they started running their hypers backwards and marketing that as their "New attraction" just like they did with Batman going backwards!
Well in 2013 we got Ignight but to make up for the lack of a new ride they ran Batman, Viper, and Eagle Blue backwards that year, so I could definitely see this happening in the future to SF parks where it could be marketed as a "new ride".
Ignight was essentially a waste of money but turning the coasters backwards was awesome! I could only imagine how crazy the GP would go if they ran Raging Bull backwards!
I'm really hoping for an RMC Eagle conversion in the future, but with the current Capex formula, the only thing I can see happening is a chop job like they did at Magic Mountain. Removing half the coaster.
Six Flags Great America is naïve when it comes to Cedar Point. They absolutely view us as competition yet we don't view them as competition! Just look at the time line how they always outdo us!
1992 We build Batman 1994 Cedar Point Builds Raptor...... 1999 We build Raging Bull 2000 Cedar Point builds Millenium Force...... 2001 We build V2 2002 Cedar Point builds Wicked Twister...... 2012 We buid X-Flight 2013 Cedar Point builds Gate Keeper..... 2014 We build Goliath 2018 Cedar Point builds Steel Vengence
I want us to do the ass kicking for once! lol. Do a proper RMC Eagle conversion and kick Steel Vengances ass! Build a better giga than Millenium Force! Build a better Dive Machine than Valravn! Build a better floorless than Rogarou! Hit back for once! Stop letting them pull one over us!
The potential that Great America has is so incredible, especially given our location between Chicago and Milwaukee! But that beast has to be released!
JackGlass wrote:Ignight was essentially a waste of money but turning the coasters backwards was awesome! I could only imagine how crazy the GP would go if they ran Raging Bull backwards!
I'm really hoping for an RMC Eagle conversion in the future, but with the current Capex formula, the only thing I can see happening is a chop job like they did at Magic Mountain. Removing half the coaster.
Six Flags Great America is naïve when it comes to Cedar Point. They absolutely view us as competition yet we don't view them as competition! Just look at the time line how they always outdo us!
1992 We build Batman 1994 Cedar Point Builds Raptor...... 1999 We build Raging Bull 2000 Cedar Point builds Millenium Force...... 2001 We build V2 2002 Cedar Point builds Wicked Twister...... 2012 We buid X-Flight 2013 Cedar Point builds Gate Keeper..... 2014 We build Goliath 2018 Cedar Point builds Steel Vengence
I want us to do the ass kicking for once! lol. Do a proper RMC Eagle conversion and kick Steel Vengances ass! Build a better giga than Millenium Force! Build a better Dive Machine than Valravn! Build a better floorless than Rogarou! Hit back for once! Stop letting them pull one over us!
The potential that Great America has is so incredible, especially given our location between Chicago and Milwaukee! But that beast has to be released!
LOL. The notion CP build stuff outdo SFGAM makes a SF fanboy have a feeling of self importance about SfGAm. Parks like CF plan things way in advance. It's an absolute foolish notion citing 1 year gaps that CF built stuff b/c of SFGAm or to upstage. CP is and always has been a destination park, SFGAm is not a destination park.
The last paragraph is pure delusion b/c SF does not have the money, the desire as it's not in their corporate plan or need to do any if(people show up no matter what). How many times does SF have to keep reiterating and enforcing their corporate plan before fanboys stop making up fantasies and except it.
JackGlass wrote:Ignight was essentially a waste of money but turning the coasters backwards was awesome! I could only imagine how crazy the GP would go if they ran Raging Bull backwards!
I'm really hoping for an RMC Eagle conversion in the future, but with the current Capex formula, the only thing I can see happening is a chop job like they did at Magic Mountain. Removing half the coaster.
Six Flags Great America is naïve when it comes to Cedar Point. They absolutely view us as competition yet we don't view them as competition! Just look at the time line how they always outdo us!
1992 We build Batman 1994 Cedar Point Builds Raptor...... 1999 We build Raging Bull 2000 Cedar Point builds Millenium Force...... 2001 We build V2 2002 Cedar Point builds Wicked Twister...... 2012 We buid X-Flight 2013 Cedar Point builds Gate Keeper..... 2014 We build Goliath 2018 Cedar Point builds Steel Vengence
I want us to do the ass kicking for once! lol. Do a proper RMC Eagle conversion and kick Steel Vengances ass! Build a better giga than Millenium Force! Build a better Dive Machine than Valravn! Build a better floorless than Rogarou! Hit back for once! Stop letting them pull one over us!
The potential that Great America has is so incredible, especially given our location between Chicago and Milwaukee! But that beast has to be released!
LOL. The notion CP build stuff outdo SFGAM makes a SF fanboy have a feeling of self importance about SfGAm. Parks like CF plan things way in advance. It's an absolute foolish notion citing 1 year gaps that CF built stuff b/c of SFGAm or to upstage. CP is and always has been a destination park, SFGAm is not a destination park.
The last paragraph is pure delusion b/c SF does not have the money, the desire as it's not in their corporate plan or need to do any if(people show up no matter what). How many times does SF have to keep reiterating and enforcing their corporate plan before fanboys stop making up fantasies and except it.
Sven18 I like you man, there's no need to go on a tirade when I specifically noted that this is what I WISH would happen! Great America is an amazing park with a ton of potential! But there's no denying it, Cedar Point constantly beats us at our own game. We could easily outdo them if corporate would get it through their thick heads that these smaller parks such as La Ronde and St Louis are essentially worthless.
Great Americas EBITDA Trumps them all. Investing in this park and turning it into a Destination resort rather than a Regional park would be the best move they could ever make! Sven18, would you go to Cedar Point if they didn't have Millenium Force, Dragster, Gate Keeper, etc? My guess is no! Because I wouldn't!
People visit Cedar Point for their amazing coaster collection and superb astetic apeal! There is nothing stoping Six Flags Great America from doing the same thing except for this ridiculous corporate strategy that puts minimal EBITDA parks in line with their money makers! Admit it man.. If Great America got a B&M Giga you and me would both be happy as all hell.
^IF Great Americas EBITDA really does go over them all, Great America is about families. This is so much more of a family park than so many other amusement parks. I don't think another Cedar Point is going to bring in the families in Illinois. Having too many high thrill rides gets rid of the families, and brings in the teens of destruction. Take for instance Six Flags Great Adventure, and Magic Mountain. They may have high attendance in the Six Flags chain, but they aren't the ones making the most money. I wonder why??? It's kind of obvious why. To me, the park really needs more / newer rides like the Whizzer to keep the families keep coming over and over again. The Whizzer is from 1976. Sure, the mouse coaster (great ride, but a pg-13 movie for families isn't great themed wise), and Little Dipper are good for families, but they really need something newer as in actual roller coaster (to replace the black Arrow coaster).
Most of the number 1 attended amusement / theme parks are Disney this & that (family parks). High thrill is wonderful. High thrill is great, but you need that balance in my opinion, and now they are way more high thrills (going on 3 in a row) which brings in the teens of destruction.
Last edited by Ilovthevu' on September 18th, 2018, 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I've been staring at the world, waiting. All the trouble and all the pain we're facing. Too much light to be livin' in the dark. Why waste time? We only got one life. Together we can be the CHANGE. So go and let your heart burn bright"
Ilovthevu' wrote:^IF Great Americas EBITDA really does go over them all, Great America is about families. This is so much more of a family park than so many other amusement parks. I don't think another Cedar Point is going to bring in the families in Illinois. Having too many high thrill rides gets rid of the families, and brings in the teens of destruction. Take for instance Six Flags Great Adventure, and Magic Mountain. To me, the park really needs more / newer rides like the Whizzer to keep the families keep coming over and over again.
Cedar Point is a great family park! They use their Charles Schultz licensing in a robust fashion! When I was at Cedar Poiint last fall, there were all sorts of families there, and they were genuinly enjoying themselves!
Great America has Warner Brothers licensing at their hands, yet doesn;t even have a Looney Tunes kids area! We need to voice our complaints/praises and give our ideas on this forum! If we didn;t let our voice be heard, Whizzer would be car parts right now!
I visit both Great America and Cedar Point on a yearly basis, and I can tell you this. Cedar Point KNOWS where their maximum EBITDA comes from (Cedar Point and Knotts) and they invest heavily into these parks! Great America is the king when it comes to profitablity and it should not be put in the same ranks as La Ronde and St Louis just for the sake of "Fairness" That's Liberal feel goody bull S*it that is completely at odds with real world profitability and finances! Spend $4 million on La Ronde to get 5,000 more guests with minimal per capita spending increases or spend $25 Million on Great America and get 400,000 more guests with maximum per capita spending increases!
The notion SFGAm is "at the top"..ie...has higher revenue and EBIDTA than SFMM is not supported by anf facts or anything ever reported or stated by SF. If you just look at the known numbers don't at all support this. SFMM annual attendance in 2017 was 330K more than SFGAm, SFMM price points are higher than SFGAm. MM having higher attendance and higher prices in no way supports the notion GAm has better financials.
2018 Flash Gold Pass : GAm $66 MM $80 Flash Dining Pass : GAm $40/$73 MM $60/$82
2019 Flash Gold Pass: GAm $68 MM $82 Flash Memberships : GAm $7.15,9.15,12.15, 18.15/mth MM$7.85,9.85,12.85, 18.85/mth each MM membership costs $8.40/yr Flash Dining : GAm $42/$75 MM$50/$83
JackGlass wrote: I visit both Great America and Cedar Point on a yearly basis, and I can tell you this. Cedar Point KNOWS where their maximum EBITDA comes from (Cedar Point and Knotts) and they invest heavily into these parks! Great America is the king when it comes to profitablity and it should not be put in the same ranks as La Ronde and St Louis just for the sake of "Fairness" That's Liberal feel goody bull S*it that is completely at odds with real world profitability and finances! Spend $4 million on La Ronde to get 5,000 more guests with minimal per capita spending increases or spend $25 Million on Great America and get 400,000 more guests with maximum per capita spending increases!
CF has CP and Knotts that are more than 1/2 of revenue and EBIDTA with number 3 far nehind, but CF also are making significant investments into new parks to expand beyond the old BIg 5, Carowinds and CGA will make it an eventual "Selected Seven".
The notion GAm is not known they are in the top end of the chain, but the price differences between MM and the attendance make MM still very very likely #1.
The idea GAm is put in the same ranks as LaRonde and Stl is not true. LR hasn't gotten a coaster since 2010 and that was a 10M SLC 689m, Stl last coaster actual "new coaster was in 2008 w/ American Thunder which was a 7M or so GCI. GAm is gotten way more than Stl or LR not only in coasters but all rides. While SF has the business plan to give every park something yearly, the difference in those additions so a clear pecking order of what parks like GAm, MM, FT, and other upper tier parks get compared to Escape, LR, SFA, Stl which are the bottom tier parks in the chain. SF gives bottom parks small things in relation to their finances yearly, Cedar Fair gives their bottom parks actual rides every few years and aesthetic, atmosphere, restaurant stuff regularly. SF every year little things keeps the complaining down, while people are always complaining about MIA, WOF, etc..getting nothing.
Sven18 wrote:The notion SFGAm is "at the top"..ie...has higher revenue and EBIDTA than SFMM is not supported by anf facts or anything ever reported or stated by SF. If you just look at the known numbers don't at all support this. SFMM annual attendance in 2017 was 330K more than SFGAm, SFMM price points are higher than SFGAm. MM having higher attendance and higher prices in no way supports the notion GAm has better financials.
2018 Flash Gold Pass : GAm $66 MM $80 Flash Dining Pass : GAm $40/$73 MM $60/$82
2019 Flash Gold Pass: GAm $68 MM $82 Flash Memberships : GAm $7.15,9.15,12.15, 18.15/mth MM$7.85,9.85,12.85, 18.85/mth each MM membership costs $8.40/yr Flash Dining : GAm $42/$75 MM$50/$83
This wasn't what I'm getting at, but the higher attendance is done through many more days of Magic Mountain being open as compared to Great America which costs more money, and now it's open every single day of the year. Great America was never open in February whereas Magic Mountain was open every weekend. They are spending more money on operations getting more guests, is my point, and now they are really spending more money (every day thing). In regards to higher prices, one could say they are competing with Disneyland & Universal which also have really, really HIGH prices in that area, but (in comparison to them), they are really cheap as compared to those higher price places. Awhile back, we talked to a person that was working in a hotel near the park, and they said California (in that area) is a very expensive place in general.
On the website, the Disneyland annual pass prices are $729, $999, or $1,149. I can't be dreaming. I see these numbers. WOW!! For Universal, it says $199, $329, and $629. Unless you get a $629, they block out some days you can not go to the (1) park. The point is that Magic Mountain is the cheap person's park in that area (of amusement parks). You know Cedar Fair is also a higher price than Magic Mountain. Illinois has way less LARGE amusement parks, and it is full of families that spend a lot (and usually is a park like that), or cheaper people too. The only other big actual amusement park in Illinois is St. Nicholas Village Azoosement Park, and that is, to be honest, more a carnival size (even though it's fun). Sure, you have small entertainment centers with hardly any rides, but they are just small places.
I have heard before (from somewhere) that Great America is such a profitable Six Flags park. Just the dining places having so many long lines kind of shows you that people are spending lots of money at this park.
"I've been staring at the world, waiting. All the trouble and all the pain we're facing. Too much light to be livin' in the dark. Why waste time? We only got one life. Together we can be the CHANGE. So go and let your heart burn bright"
Double post, but I want to mention it because it's a minor update, and it might be important to some people.
I think I read on here that they did away with the preferred parking lot, but I found the scheme they are doing to make up for that. The people on a Six Flags facebook page (have said / shown a picture) that parking is now $30! Yes, that's right. $30! So, I think they raised it from $26 to $30, and took away the preferred parking. It's such a shame they are doing that; for the people that have to endure that. It's so ABSURD! $30 and you get absolutely NOTHING. Not even a tram / bus ride if you are parking in the furthest parking area.
"I've been staring at the world, waiting. All the trouble and all the pain we're facing. Too much light to be livin' in the dark. Why waste time? We only got one life. Together we can be the CHANGE. So go and let your heart burn bright"
They're probably going to eat into the parking lot some more and want to raise prices to make up for the difference!
As far as Great Americas EBITDA goes. I'm basing this on an interview with Mark Shapiro back in 2006 where he said Great America was the most profitable park in the chain. I don't know if that's still the case, but there's no denying it, Great America is a huge money maker!
Magic Mountains higher prices are totally justified given Califronia's high minimum wage and the parks massive ride collection. In fact, I'm still shocked pass prices are below $100. Great America could easily charge the same prices as Magic Mountain without any retaliation IF and only if, they were to start adding more marketable and major attractions as well as spruce the park up.
Great America is already getting 3 Million guests a year on an April-October operating season. Just imagine what it could get if more marketable and major attractions were added! People travel to Cedar Point because of their insane ride collection and overall good feel. If those major attractions like Millenium Force, Dragster and Valravn were removed, their attendance would plummet.
Great Americas location is much better than Cedar Points, being located between Chicago and Milwuakee. There is absolutely no reason why we couldn't get the same (Or higher) Attendance figures that Cedar Point gets! It's this stupid Corporate strategy that stops us from doing it. Great America could obliterate Millenium Force, Steel Vengence and Valravn if they wanted to but sadly Corporate has this cheap mentality that really holds back a ton of potential. Cdear Fair is doing the right thing by ignoring most of the smaller parks in their chain because they provide very little EBITDA. The only argument I've ever heard for parks like Michigan's Adventure and Valley Fair is "Fairness" which is nonsensical and emotional based dribble.
Sven18 wrote:The notion SFGAm is "at the top"..ie...has higher revenue and EBIDTA than SFMM is not supported by anf facts or anything ever reported or stated by SF. If you just look at the known numbers don't at all support this. SFMM annual attendance in 2017 was 330K more than SFGAm, SFMM price points are higher than SFGAm. MM having higher attendance and higher prices in no way supports the notion GAm has better financials.
2018 Flash Gold Pass : GAm $66 MM $80 Flash Dining Pass : GAm $40/$73 MM $60/$82
2019 Flash Gold Pass: GAm $68 MM $82 Flash Memberships : GAm $7.15,9.15,12.15, 18.15/mth MM$7.85,9.85,12.85, 18.85/mth each MM membership costs $8.40/yr Flash Dining : GAm $42/$75 MM$50/$83
This wasn't what I'm getting at, but the higher attendance is done through many more days of Magic Mountain being open as compared to Great America which costs more money, and now it's open every single day of the year. Great America was never open in February whereas Magic Mountain was open every weekend. They are spending more money on operations getting more guests, is my point, and now they are really spending more money (every day thing). In regards to higher prices, one could say they are competing with Disneyland & Universal which also have really, really HIGH prices in that area, but (in comparison to them), they are really cheap as compared to those higher price places. Awhile back, we talked to a person that was working in a hotel near the park, and they said California (in that area) is a very expensive place in general.
On the website, the Disneyland annual pass prices are $729, $999, or $1,149. I can't be dreaming. I see these numbers. WOW!! For Universal, it says $199, $329, and $629. Unless you get a $629, they block out some days you can not go to the (1) park. The point is that Magic Mountain is the cheap person's park in that area (of amusement parks). You know Cedar Fair is also a higher price than Magic Mountain. Illinois has way less LARGE amusement parks, and it is full of families that spend a lot (and usually is a park like that), or cheaper people too. The only other big actual amusement park in Illinois is St. Nicholas Village Azoosement Park, and that is, to be honest, more a carnival size (even though it's fun). Sure, you have small entertainment centers with hardly any rides, but they are just small places.
I have heard before (from somewhere) that Great America is such a profitable Six Flags park. Just the dining places having so many long lines kind of shows you that people are spending lots of money at this park.
I will reiterate there is not any evidence to support the notion GAm makes more than MM. The evidence that does exist leans heavily towards MM making more. Higher volume, higher prices at MM. The fact MM is cheaper than th other SoCal parks is irrelevant to the fact that they get 10% more per memberships, 15% on dining,and 25% per Gold pass. FYI, MM lines for food are long too
SF would not be going to all year if they were losing or not making much on their current schedule,especially in the non prime time times when they do daily operations 1030-6pm. So, while opening more days cost money, they wouldn't keep doing it and expanding it if it wasn't profitable.
JackGlass wrote:Great America is already getting 3 Million guests a year on an April-October operating season. Just imagine what it could get if more marketable and major attractions were added! People travel to Cedar Point because of their insane ride collection and overall good feel. If those major attractions like Millenium Force, Dragster and Valravn were removed, their attendance would plummet.
Great Americas location is much better than Cedar Points, being located between Chicago and Milwuakee. There is absolutely no reason why we couldn't get the same (Or higher) Attendance figures that Cedar Point gets! It's this stupid Corporate strategy that stops us from doing it. Great America could obliterate Millenium Force, Steel Vengence and Valravn if they wanted to but sadly Corporate has this cheap mentality that really holds back a ton of potential. Cdear Fair is doing the right thing by ignoring most of the smaller parks in their chain because they provide very little EBITDA. The only argument I've ever heard for parks like Michigan's Adventure and Valley Fair is "Fairness" which is nonsensical and emotional based dribble.
Comparing GAm to Cedar point has little point, GAm will never be CP. CP is a unique location set on a peninsula, located perfectly for resorts, etc...which CF has perfectly utilized. GAm location is not better than CP's. GAm is not a destination park and is not situated to be one.
The notion GAm could "obliterate Millenium Force, Steel Vengence and Valravn if they wanted to" is pure fantasy. GAm ansd SF parks profitability comes largely from cheapness, if they spent more(not going to happen) they would kill their margins, which SF brags about across the chain. The hallmark of GAm in their presentations is highlighting how little they spend on Capex compared to other chains.
GAm is a regional park which in general means more price sensitive than a destination park, like a CP. Each parks charge as much as they think they can based on their market. SF are testing price increases across the chain with memberships b/c SF was scared of just raising prices, though a gold plus membership is really what a gold pass used to be at higher price.
On attendance, GAm like all SF parks have inflated attendance by continuous BFFF and 9.99, 19.99, etc,,, Cedar Point has much fewer, their BFFF promo was the last 2 weeks of August, which was after Ohio schools were in and the park traditionally slows down and has 8pm close. In contrast, SF runs these continuously during the entire season. Hard to really compare SF parks to others with the BFFF all the time. The attendance per caps for SF are the lowest in the industry among the big chains b/c of cheap passes and the many BFFF's.
^Relax Sven we know Six Flags Great America will never become Cedar Point and that Six Flags would never spend that much money on our park due to Capex and all that stuff. Also in my opinion being on a peninsula is better than being next to a bunch of neighbors who complain over noise and height.
How come Lightning Rod is never open when I go.
Top 10: 1. El Toro 2. Steel Vengeance 3. I305 4. Fury 325 5. Maverick 6. Mako 7. Iron Rattler 8. Medusa Steel Coaster 9. Raptor Clones 10. Maxx Force.
Don't we all? When I was at the park last weekend, there were a few chain link fences up around Buccaneer Battle! Are they finally getting ready to demolish that thing?
